Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Ask the coach 21 with executive coach and business mentor Nick Sellers. How are you doing, Nick?
[00:00:07] Speaker B: I'm very well, Andrew, thank you. How about you?
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm well, thanks and well. So this week, Nick, I wanted to talk about a topic that's coming up a lot in conversation that I'm having at the moment with senior finance professionals. With the finance market especially at the senior end, being a little bit quiet just now, a lot of professionals are considering whether they should start to look at more junior positions. And what I was really keen to understand from you, Nick, is your thoughts on this. So, Nick, what are the pros and cons of a senior professional considering a more junior role?
[00:00:43] Speaker B: I think considering that kind of, I'm going to call it that step down. Considering that step down, I think needs to be part of the individual's plan for themselves. So if it's a reaction to a situation, that might not be the best reason for taking a step down. You know, kind of as you step down, maybe there are more opportunities available, but then if you've experienced senior level responsibilities, benefits package, all of that kind of thing, are you going to be satisfied by stepping down? So I think if it's part of your plan, somebody that's maybe wanting to cut the number of hours that they work every week, somebody that is wanting to, as they head towards retirement, somebody who's actually wanting to just kind of ease into retirement rather than run right the way to the end of the work period, then I think make it a part of your plan rather than a reaction to something that you experience. That would be my guidance because recruiting managers, recruiters are very sensitive, I think probably, and you can tell me if I'm wrong on this, to the fact that you've got somebody who's been used to a high level of responsibility, who's now looking for a more junior position but doesn't have a particularly good reason, if that's the way put. If that's the way to put it, you know that it seems as though maybe it's a reaction to their circumstances.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree, Nick. I think there's a healthy skepticism amongst recruiters, but more importantly clients, as to the reasons behind somebody taking a more junior position. So we'll just start, Nick, with the big elephant in the room, which is money. So I completely understand. If somebody is between jobs, then finances are a big consideration and the longer you're between jobs, the bigger that consideration becomes. So if somebody's in the position where financially they need a job, is that the right strategy? Would you say for them to consider something more junior, or should they be considering something left field? What would your advice be in that scenario?
[00:02:53] Speaker B: I think everybody's circumstances are unique. Each individual person will know what their motivation is. One of the big challenges with clients that I've talked to who are between jobs is that they've come out of one position where they've become used to the institution, used to the role and all of that, then they find themselves without work. Maybe they've been made redundant, maybe they just decided to leave and then look for another position. But what they've not done is they've not really particularly spent much time thinking about what it is they want to do next. And without that kind of roadmap for themselves, then they just find themselves in the middle of a confusing, busy marketplace. And so, you know, I've worked with clients who maybe over a period of three months have applied for 150 jobs and they've become increasingly desperate. So they've started off going for the senior roles that they were used to and then have been going more and more junior until, you know, you could almost sense that the next step would have been that they would have maybe happily stacked shelves in a supermarket.
[00:04:02] Speaker A: Yes, I think when you talk about a roadmap, Nick, I completely agree, very, very important to have that plan of where you're trying to get to. But on the flip side, as you've just mentioned, you are a little bit at the mercy of the job market and you are at the mercy of the companies that you're applying to. So the bet you can have the best laid plan in the world. But I can see this frustration with senior finance professionals. If they can't get that position, really, what would the plan be? What are some of the plan B's or plan C's that you suggest? Or let's not call it a Plan B or C, Nick, but what's the plan that you would suggest?
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Well, I think one of the first things is you've got to make yourself look interesting for anybody that's looking for work, paying little attention to your LinkedIn profile, your LinkedIn activity, paying little attention to your CV is not preparing you for interviewing. Well, you know, the recruiter, the recruiting manager, they're going to look at the CV, they're going to look at the LinkedIn profile, they're going to maybe look at who you're connected with on LinkedIn, they look at all of those things. That's before they even decide whether they're going to talk to you or not. If you haven't got things prepared. So whether you're looking for a same level or a promotion, or whether you're looking for a more junior job, you've got to look interesting because why should somebody take the risk on you as a senior person going for a junior job, getting, getting stuck in there and then being bored after six months? You know, I don't think that's really the kind of approach that many managers would look for to put a senior person into a junior role and then find out that actually they've lost interest within a short time.
And I understand, you know, people have got commitments, they've got, they've got financial needs and so forth. And it may be that taking a role that's more junior is an attractive option in the absence of anything else. But maybe there are other things that we can do. We may choose to take interim work, part time work. It may be that we choose to use the time that we've got available if we can afford to, volunteering and helping others using the skills that we learned in our career. Because it's amazing who you meet through volunteering and who knows whether somebody that you talk to actually opens the door to an opportunity that hasn't even been advertised.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah, completely agree, Nick. Just to the point of having that profile, say on LinkedIn, which of course is one of the primary areas that recruiters and clients go to look for new staff. What's your view on the. Are you familiar with, Nick, the Open to work banner, which is the green banner that people will have around the photograph on LinkedIn? What's your view on the Open to Work banner? It's quite a controversial one. Should people, if they're looking for a job, have open to work banner on their LinkedIn offer?
[00:06:55] Speaker B: I think it's for the individual. Again, I know I'm sitting on the fence. I'm saying this with all, you know, unique circumstances and all of that. I think the individual has to decide. When you put the open to work banner up, it tells everybody in the world that you're open to work.
You can, there is a setting in LinkedIn where somebody can say, I'm open to work, but it's only seen by recruiters who subscribe to LinkedIn. So that kind of is a, is a halfway house. You're not announcing to the world. You could tell people in your network that you are open to work without putting the banner up. So I think, I think there's various options there, but it's. How comfortable are you, how desperate are you? Because for me, the open to work green thing, it does, it does sometimes feel a little bit, and especially when you see the kind of posts that people put out as though they've reached a point of desperation. And that I don't think necessarily looks attractive in a potential recruitment manager's eyes.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah, so I think you've already jumped off the fence, Nick, and I would agree with you and say my view, and I have a strong view, and this is in no circumstances put the open to work banner up on your LinkedIn. And the only caveat to that, I would say is for very junior professionals, graduates who you would really expect to be open to work, but I think for senior professionals, they need to be more nuanced in how they take themselves to market. I think psychologically, I think you're hitting it this, Nick. People want.
I think if something's in abundance, the demand decreases. And I think scarcity, as we know human nature, we are attracted to scarcity. So I think by putting that open to work banner up, it's a horrible thing to say, but it does signal, I think, a level of potentially desperation that shouldn't, it shouldn't necessarily signal up. I think it would signal that and I think it just decreases that demand for that person because of their obvious availability.
It's like the scenario if something's 100 pound and there's a sale for and it's 50% off, everybody goes snapping it up. If that gone on the shelf at 50 pound, no one would be snapping it up. But there's that, there's that view of a premium product and I think by putting that open to work banner, you can potentially devalue your product.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Actually you've touched on something really important there. And there was a thought forming in my mind and it's this, that a recruiter, a recruiting manager, will be looking for somebody who, through their LinkedIn profile, through their LinkedIn activity, through everything that they can find about them, their cv, they're looking for somebody who has experience, who has accomplishments, who has confidence in what they do. They're not looking for somebody that appears to be needy. They're not looking for somebody that. So I think, I think everything is all about dressing the shop window in an attractive way. And I know we're kind of drifting off the topic of, you know, senior people applying for junior roles, but I think there's even an opportunity where somebody who is senior is looking for a junior role deliberately. I, I think you can say in your cv, you can say in your covering letter, you can say on your LinkedIn profile, I've decided on a change of pace.
You know, I'm now looking for the role that's going to take me through the five years to retirement. And so a recruitment, a recruiting manager could look at that person and say, this person doesn't have ambition, but what they do want to do is they want to work out. And I could maybe benefit in this junior role from their immense experience. Let's have a look at them. Because once you've got into the interview, then you're in a position to actually have a conversation about why you're doing this.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I definitely think one of the reasons I mentioned open to work banner is an easy way to signal your intent to the market that you're looking for work. And there are some positives in that, but I don't believe, as you mentioned, Nick, that's the right way to present yourself in the short window, especially a more senior level. So what would you suggest? Some of the alternatives would be to signal your intent to the market, to position yourself in the right place. But without that open to work banner on your, on your profile, for example.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: I think, I think, you know, there's the about section of LinkedIn, which is part of the shop window and you know, people, people can use that about section, not only to describe who they are and what they've done and all of that kind of thing, but they can change the text in it frequently if they want to and they can say, you know, I'm now looking for a position in this particular place, in this particular direction, in this particular role or department and if it looks like it's not something that they have experience in from the rest of the experience that's shown there on LinkedIn, they can take a sentence to explain why. So I think make it easy for people to understand where you're coming from so that, you know, maybe you've worked in Accounts payable and you want to move over to tax.
You may have all the right qualifications, but your experience has been an accounts payable, for example. And so you can say it, say this is the reason why I'm, you know, I'm looking to change.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Tactic I've seen used a bit, and I actually advocate for this tactic, Nick, is that when people aren't in a full time employed position, in order to address that gap, they'll use say for example, a trustee position to bridge that gap, although we know it's an unpaid role. Or they will cover that gap with pro bono work, for example. It doesn't need to be anything official. It might be that you're helping a local business with their accounts, it might be that you're helping a family member strategise. And I think even just having that gives that impression of being busy, being in demand, being in control. And I think it's just taking that balance. Although people may feel desperate if they're looking for a job, you cannot appear desperate and you cannot become desperate. And I think being able to keep that look of business on your social media and your profile and appear to be in demand will likely make you more in demand. And I know that sounds a bit strange, but I just believe there's a lot of psychology behind that. And. Yeah, and probably, you know, having bridging that gap somehow through pro bono work, for example, is probably a good way to present yourself to the market.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah. To be interesting, you have to be interested.
Okay. And you also have to be proactive. So let's. There's two scenarios that we could kind of paint a picture with here. One is a person who's in a role but is looking to make a change and they're considering, because the senior level roles or the companies don't appear to be there, they're considering maybe taking a change to a more junior role. Now what is it they're moving away from? Are they moving away from the culture? Are they moving away from the pressure? What. And so they need to be clear there. But then, you know, that whole kind of step across to another place, they need to start expressing interest in that other place. You know, I'm not just talking about a corporation, I'm talking about what the role would be, what level it's at. They need to start expressing an interest in it to be interesting.
And I think very often going back to the green banner on LinkedIn, I think very often these are reactions to situations we need to be proactive. So, you know, again, I'm going back to having a plan that where somebody is now thinking about a move to a more junior role, let's not just make it a knee jerk reaction to a situation we found ourselves in. If we were made redundant, which is the other scenario, if we were made redundant, let's be very clear about what our plan is to get ourselves back into work. Are we not going to give up on the same level? Are we going to consider all options? And that then means that we then know where we've got to show interest in order to be interesting. So proactivity and showing interest, I think are two things that are vital and.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: I think that reactive, that reactivity is often driven financially, which is completely understandable.
So if somebody has got to the point where. Well, let's rewind a little bit, Nick. What are the things that you would advocate for the person doing? So if it's a scenario where you find yourself in a redundancy position and you're unclear what you want to do going forward, you're aware that at some point in the near future there'll be financial consideration when your redundancy money runs out. What, what would, if you were sitting down with a client, what, how would you take them through a plan of where they go from, from this position? Bear in mind that as we discussed the roadmap, you can have a clear roadmap. That roadmap is fairly reactive given that you're also relying on getting interviews and a company hiring you in accordance with your plan. So what was the very first thing you would do, Nick, if you were sitting down with a client in a redundancy position?
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Looking at what's next, I think two things. One is I would ask them to really be clear about where they wanted to end up. Not necessarily the name of the company or the seniority of the position, but do they want to go back into paid employment? Do they want to try and set up their own business? Do they want to have a portfolio career where they may be working for two or three companies simultaneously, you know, part time roles? They need to, they need to kind of figure out what do they want the end result to be. And then I think the next thing is that they need to start planning, I guess, what the next three to six months are going to look like financially activity wise, because it isn't just about, you know, kind of just rushing to flood the market with comments. I mean, you know, how do you go from having virtually no post to your name on LinkedIn to having ones that a recruiter or recruiting manager is going to look at and say, oh, this person's clearly active. Well, it's not because you posted 10 times in one day, having had silence for three years before. So it's like you've actually got to start being more thoughtful about how you're going to get to that point of being attractive. And it may be that, you know, taking on pro bono work, it might be that. Actually I'm gonna say swallowing our pride, if it's our pride or swallowing our fear, dealing with our fear. We do need to reach out to folks in our network because they're probably going to be the best source of Opportunities. Maybe not them themselves, but the network of our network knows a lot of people. So, you know, if you've got 500 people on your LinkedIn network and maybe there's a hundred of them that you feel you could approach, then, you know, maybe each of those hundred has got 500 people. With 100 they could approach 100 times. 100 is 10,000, I think. So who knows whether, you know, you could actually go through your network, but make it easy for them as well. So whichever direction you're going in, whether it's just kind of like looking for another role or whatever, your network is incredibly important. But you've got to have the shop window ready for when people start looking at you.
[00:18:46] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely, Nick. I agree. I think too many people get frustrated at the job search, but they maybe have only scratched the surface. And, you know, they've applied on job boards, for example, or applied for things on blank 10. I think that's really only scratching the surface of how you can present yourself and how you can gain access to new opportunities. It's interesting, I think, your point about the financial plan. It kind of reminded me of running a business, Nick, where, you know, you've got your cash forecast and you know, the money that's coming in the next three, six months, and you decide how to spend that money and how to spend that money in different scenarios. And I suppose that's a very good point. If you're in that position and you've got a Runway of cash from redundancy, I would absolutely agree. Look at your financial needs over the period and decide what's important, what isn't. Is it three months? If I don't get a job in three months, do I need to do X or Y? If don't get a job in six months to need to do X or Y. But having that plan in place, I think, and that Runway allows you just breathing space to go and look at all those options.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's really key, and I think keeping ourselves active as well. You know, it does happen sometimes. I did work with somebody last year who was made redundant, was given a nice healthy package, but then actually took six months off to just play video games. And this was a person at a senior level in the business. He didn't. He didn't really pay much attention to things until he came very close to his money running out. And then panic set in.
Not a great situation to be in. Horrible to be made redundant, but to have frittered the time away when he could have been, you know, Building up some skills that would have suited him, you know, qualification skills certifications that would have suited him for a new role that he wanted to go and apply for. You know, preparing his CV, getting his LinkedIn profile updated and so forth. And it took quite a while for him to stop bouncing around between opinions as well because he, he'd, he.
Sorry, I'm rambling on a bit but I do think it's important this. When he was made redundant, he kind of had a group of friends who were kept telling him that the world was against him and it fed some aspect of how he thought his mindset. And so he retreated to the video games. Not, not a great place to be.
When he kind of realized that the money was coming to an end, then his return to focus came. But there was a very tense period whilst he was applying and doing well with interviews, but not actually getting the roles offered.
Thankfully, happily there was a good outcome in the end, but that some aspect of that could have been avoided.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Definitely, yeah, money's a great motivator. But I think to avoid that scenario, Nick, is people do forget job hunting and the job search. When you are looking for something quite specific, take time and I often think very difficult period, and we spoke about this Nick, is the period between when you decide that your long term future is not with the company and there's an interim period there where you know you've kind of made that decision, you want to move on, you start to explore the market and I think that's a really important period because the longer you give yourself in that period, the more you can explore the market, the more relaxed you can be about it and the more you can assure that the next opportunity is the right move. I think the problem often is that people don't give themselves enough time during that period and they get to a position of desperation or reactivity and it can lead to frustration or making the wrong decision. I think it's quite a different scenario if you're between jobs and you don't have the income. But even having that three, six months breathing space to have that period I think isn't as important if you can.
But going back to I suppose the original question then I kind of taken you off topic a little bit. But. So the original question on if somebody should consider a more junior position, do you think at what stage should you be considering that and is that the right scenario? You know, is it going to lead to future difficulties in your career? Is it going to lead to frustration? How should somebody assess that decision?
[00:23:12] Speaker B: I think I think taking wise counsel is a good approach. So one of the things that was going through my mind as we've been talking is, of course, we've talked a lot about CVS and LinkedIn, but a lot of jobs are not advertised ever. And the whole kind of networking thing does bring in the thought of having conversations with people who are in the right place or who are connected in the right way. So I would hope that somebody that's considering a change will actually not just decide in isolation, but will talk not just with folks close to them, like spouses, partners, family, friends, but will also talk to somebody like yourself who works with companies to find the right people and would maybe, maybe a candidate would come to somebody in your particular position to say, how does this look? If I go down this route, it may be that you've got an open position and you've got somebody very senior that comes to you and says, andrew, I'm thinking about applying for this. Here's my reasons why. And then you can offer them advice. You can find out from them what their real reason for doing it is. Is it desperation, or is it that they're actually starting to sort of plan for retirement? What would it be that would cause somebody like that to make that change? How would it feel to you if somebody.
Sorry, I'm turning the question around here, but how would it feel to you if somebody came to you and said, you know, I'm a candidate, I'm senior, I'm thinking of taking this. You know, maybe they've been made redundant six months before.
Would that be the sort of thing that you would advise them to go do, or would it be something that you would kind of say, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: I think there's pros and cons, certainly, Nick. I think it would have to align with their greater career aspirations. Ideally, the caveat to that would be if there's financial pressure, then I think you just don't want to be in a situation of desperation. I think that's the worst place to be because it will impact everything you do. It will impact the way you present yourself, it'll impact the conversations you're having, it'll impact the way you present yourself at interview, if you do get interviews. So I think staying away from that place of desperation financially is key. And I think.
I think it would depend on if they were accepting that the potential negative would be that they were then missing out. If they were to present themselves as a more junior or to look at more junior positions. It may be that, you know, when the job Market picks up again, they are missing out opportunities that could have been at the level they were originally looking or a more senior level. And by stepping back, it's not always easy to make that step back up. So I think it would be a careful consideration and I wouldn't advise for or against. I think as you've.
As you'd mentioned, Nick, I think it really isn't a case by case. Circumstance and someone's personal position and greater career aspirations I think are very important.
I think it's interesting because at a startup event last night, really good event, and I was speaking to a chapter who didn't come from money and he was running a startup during the day while working part time in the evenings and the weekends. And what struck me, and I didn't say this to the chap, is how different it would be for him if he had money in the bank from a source from his parents, for example, he's quite a young chap and had that money, how different his approach to the startup and likelihood of success would be.
And the reason I was making that point, Nick, is that I think you have. One of the things you have to look at in any situation is if the money's not there and the money's making you reactive to something, you should be very. That's a situation you should try and stay away from because it will probably lead to poor decisions, poor choices. For example, that chap might give away a large portion of equity in a startup for not much money because he really needs the money now, whereas somebody who's financially secure wouldn't make that financial decision. So I think, and it's the same with job hunting, you need to try and stay away from that position of financial desperation and horrible place to be. I've been there myself before, hopefully not again, but I think that's the key thing I'd always advise anyone I'm working with to try and stay away from. And if that means taking a more junior position or taking a position.
I know you mentioned stacking shelves, Nick, and I know that's probably not the route most people would look at, but even taking a position outside of your key area just to bring in some money in the short term would be preferable to getting in a bad financial position.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Yeah. I think what you've just outlined there is really, we need to avoid first of all that position of desperation. Now if you're in a job, I always say to people, if you're in a job, it's easier to find a job.
So avoid being out of work.
[00:28:30] Speaker A: Sorry, did it drop just on that point?
Why is it easier to find a job when you're in a job?
[00:28:37] Speaker B: I think you touched on something just now. I think it's easier to find a job when you're in a job because, number one, your demeanor is different. You're not desperate for one thing. You're not seeing that the world is facing you down. You're actually a place where you've got an income and whilst it might not be everything you hope it would be, that actually that's one less desperation point to deal with. I think the other thing about it as well is that when people are out of work, clearly in some cases they've just been made redundant, as simple as that. That the company had to cut and they were just unfortunately cut.
But it's maybe the case as well that they're out of work because of something they've contributed. You know, maybe it's been a poor relationship in the workplace and the company hasn't dealt with it through the disciplinary ingrievance procedure, but they've actually just cut a post and that person ended up going because they weren't very productive, weren't very helpful in the team, or something along those lines. So there has to be a kind of a question mark over somebody that's out of work for that reason. I think if it's not the case, then forget that. But I think I just feel that employers will look at somebody who's got a good employment track record more favorably than they would somebody who's not in work and just seems to have been made redundant every six months.
[00:30:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. The reason I was asking Nick, is it. Does it go back to the psychology of open to work and just that employers assume that somebody in a job would be more attractive than somebody not in a job. The reality is, when I have conversations with clients, I think very much they want to understand the reason why somebody's looking for work. First and foremost is one of the first questions people will ask. But I also think, especially in the current climate or where there are redundancies happening, well, there is a bit of an economic uncertainty. Employers are also very, very understanding. Typically, if there is a justification, and that justification might be something negative, you know, they haven't had a great relationship in the previous role. But most of that can be addressed with a client, I think. And if there's no pattern of it, I think if you mention that every six months get a new job, I think if there's a pattern of that, it will be explored in a lot more detail. I think if somebody's had a role where it's not worked out or, and they've left it fairly short period of into the road, I don't think that typically presents an issue unless it's been a pattern throughout their career.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's, that's fair. And I think I would say part of the preparation for the interview happens well before the interview ever happens, which is when the question is asked of you, what is your response going to be? So if somebody says, so you're not working just now, can you tell me what happened? You know, explain it was because you chose to leave because of a toxic environment or because you were made redundant because there were cuts and, you know, there were 100 people that were let go at the same time. But be prepared. Don't. Don't treat the question like you were surprised by it.
And it might be that you actually prepare the ground in your covering letter with your cv, for example, that you're able to say, I'm currently open to work because.
And, you know, kind of preempt that somebody's going to ask you that question anyway.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think. Great advice. Absolutely right. Have it scripted, go into the interview, understand exactly what you're going to say. Try and be open and upfront about it and say it confidently without shame, because it is what it is and the likelihood as a future employer will find out regardless, they can take a reference. So be confident, honest, upfront about. And typically it doesn't present an issue. I think the issue only comes when people try to conceal it or they're not confident in the way that they presented to the client. So, yeah, yeah.
One thing I wanted to ask you about, Nick, is in your career, have you ever taken. You obviously worked in senior roles, have you ever taken the chance on hiring somebody from a personal perspective? So there's two things I just want to ask about here. So one, have you taken the chance from somebody? And second, when you took that chance, I think a consideration, or if you haven't taken the chance, a consideration is people are hesitant maybe to hire somebody who would be as experienced or more experienced than them because they may see it as a threat, they may make them look less competent or challenge them in their role in the way that they're not comfortable with. So what I wanted to ask you, Nick, is have you ever taken a chance on somebody who's maybe too senior for the role? How did that make you feel personally? Did you assess that they may be a Challenge to your position. What was the thought process there? If that's a scenario you've come across?
[00:33:36] Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, it is. And yes, I have hired people who've been more senior than me and also people who've been better qualified than me for roles that were probably a little bit junior for them. But there were a few thoughts that went through my mind. Never, never did I feel threatened by somebody else.
In fact, I embraced the notion that we should always be open to other people's ideas. I have a very collaborative style of management, so much so that, you know, there are guys that used to work for me who've now become vice presidents of major corporations. And when I bumped into them, they said, we really like working for you, Nick, because you always gave us a chance to actually go and do what was on our minds rather than just telling us what to do. So. So that was nice feedback for me. But I think people need to be trusted and I think if somebody comes in with a lot of qualification, with a lot of experience, then don't feel threatened by. Embrace it and see what you can get out of them, you know, see what that additional experience or those better qualifications will bring to the whole team.
So I would tend to embrace it rather than feel threatened by it. Yeah, there's been a couple of occasions where people came into the business and they only stayed for nine months because they got a better offer somewhere else. It's a risk you take when you hire somebody that's senior, but then people cycle through roles much more quickly now than they did 40 years ago. So I think sometimes employers might look at somebody and say, too senior, they wouldn't stay very long. But actually, if you look at the average tenure of an employee nowadays, it's probably a lot less than it was all those years ago, and so maybe people are cycling through more quickly.
[00:35:23] Speaker A: Anyway, yeah, it's interesting. I worked with a chap a long time ago now and he came from a more senior role and was doing a role at my level. It was earlier in McCreer and he was a director in another business. He came in as a. In a building capacity and recruitment, and I definitely think he knowingly or unknowingly undermined the current director and used reference to what he would do in that scenario, given that he was in a similar role in a previous job.
If you were that, and I can see that that would have a hesitancy for the last thing you want is people in your team to try and undermine you amongst the team.
Did that ever cross your Mind. And if a manager or director or senior professional finds themselves in that scenario, what should they do and how should they address that with the member of staff? If they're coming from a more senior position and they are then coming in, trying to tell them how to do their job, which is only one scenario, I've come across that happening, but it must happen. How did that scenario play out and what advice would you give to both parties?
[00:36:30] Speaker B: In my case, I headed it off at the pass, so to speak, in that I made it very clear that I recognized that they were from a more senior position, that they had more qualification, but I made it clear that actually, whilst they've got all of that, I wasn't looking for somebody that was going to come in and reinvent the wheel. I wasn't looking for somebody that was going to come in and do their own politicking. I was looking for somebody that was going to contribute to the team. So I think setting the rules of engagement before the person even starts is really important.
And I think being prepared to, to challenge them to not so much on the work that they do, but on the way that they're conducting themselves in the workplace is really important because very often those very senior people may well actually come in with a style which is disruptive. You know, somebody's going above you to your boss, to your line manager, that's a disruptive action.
And so be prepared to actually talk to that, deal with that very quickly rather than letting it take root.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I think great point, Nick. And addressing upfront is key. It's interesting. Years ago, used to do a lot of contract recruitment and quite often you would get senior professionals who'd maybe been 20, 30 years in the bank or one of the big banks in Edinburgh, and they'd leave to go contract. And a big issue that came up a lot was as a contractor, you're coming in to deliver quite a narrow service or objective. So you coming in really, you paid to deliver something very defined, typically. But the issue was people coming in 20, 30 years in the bank, they wanted to come in and try and reinvent the wheel or they wanted to get involved in the politics. And it typically caused big issues because they may well and often have been more senior than the program manager or the program director, and they challenge them on things that never, it never ended well, always ended badly. And after a while I would cut that off in the past myself and I'd say to these people, listen, you've got amazing skills, experience, you can bring loads into the role, but Just remember your place. You're not there to challenge, you're not there to get involved in politics. You've got a key deliverable. You need to completely support the project director on that and not challenge them openly. If you want to have a private conversation, go for it, but don't be trying to run the show. It's not what you're there to do. And I suppose it's a similar scenario that could happen if. If someone was going into more junior role.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think. I think that's the case. I mean, when somebody, senior, somebody, experience, goes into a more junior role, maybe they can help the team just by virtue of the fact they've got experience and so they're actually able to help people with some. Some tips, some techniques, some advice. As long as it doesn't run counter to the objectives that the line manager, the project is setting, then I don't see that there's a lot of harm in that. That's kind of tapping into the greater experience that they have. Rather than being confrontational about it. The person that's come in could actually be quite helpful. Making overtures to the project lead to the team manager to actually say, look, I'm observing something here. I think there's maybe an opportunity to do something a bit different. But if the line manager, the project manager isn't interested, they've got to park it. They can't actually go and treat it as a battle on a new front. You know, they were brought in as a contractor to do a certain job. Make sure you deliver that job well, because that's how you build trust, that's how you get your credentials polished up and shiny and then, you know, maybe the opportunity to use your experience in a different way comes along later.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I was speaking to Chap last week and the. I've known him a long time, he's been working internationally, but he's got a family in Edinburgh. He's looking to secure something closer to home. So he's on a big salary, big role, international remit. And he just, for him, he just doesn't want that. It's not. Not what he's looking for at this stage in his career. Scottish marketplace, quite different. It won't pay the salary that he was on. And he is one of the people who is looking at a more junior position because it completely understandable that that suits what he's looking to get out of his life over the medium to long term now. And he's going for an interview. It's not an interview. That I got me to apply for something directly and he'd asked me for a bit of advice on how to, how to prepare for the interview. Yeah, and a key thing I said to him, Nick, is you need to get across. He's been operating at CFO level essentially it's a fairly small business that he's going for the interview with. I said you're going to be more experienced than the cfo. You really need to get across to him at this interview that you're there to support him, to deliver for him, to make him look good, to help him do his job. And he needs to be, he needs to trust you. You're not going to come in there and undermine him or make him look incompetent. And you really need to get that across at the interview because that will be absolutely something at the forefront of his mind, I'd imagine. Unless the CFO is just hugely confident, I suspect it'll be an absolute consideration for the cfo. How's this guy going to fit in my team and how is that going to make me look and challenge me? And I think my advice was make it very clear at the interview that there to support him, that you want to bring your knowledge in and really make a positive impact. But as his right hand man, not, not as the guy which he was in his previous role. Is that the right approach, Nick?
[00:41:57] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think when, when going into the recruitment process, the recruit, the recruiting executive will think about the risks that he runs personally from the recruitment. He'll be thinking about the risks to the organization. And if you as the candidate are going in there knowing that you've got tons of experience, loads of qualification, been there, seen it, all the rest of it.
Think about that going into the conversation about how you can head off that other person's fears about risk. And, and you're right, you know, to go in and say I don't want to be the head honcho. I'm now at the point where I'd actually rather be somebody's right hand man. I'd rather use all of these years of experience I've got to help move things forward elegantly, efficiently make out that you are not a threat, that actually if anything you're going to be a resource that, you know, might cost 10 but return 20 to the organization, you know, and, and you're, you're. What you outlined, I think was, was spot on.
[00:43:05] Speaker A: Agree Nick. It's really important to address that risk because even if it doesn't come up in conversation, I think it's key if you're in that position to address it, because if it's not mentioned by the hiring manager, they will absolutely be thinking it. And I think you need to make it crystal clear your position on that during the interview in order that they don't go away after the interview and assess you as a risk to them. Another risk, Nick, and how would you address this? Another risk that we've talked about previously in the conversation there is that there will be an apprehension that you will leave if an opportunity comes up at the right level for you, a similar level to the level you've been operating at. How can you address that risk during the interview?
[00:43:46] Speaker B: That's interesting. I would hope that whoever is doing the conducting the interview on behalf of the organization, I would hope that they would first of all be straight out and pose that question.
Because to ignore it is just foolishness.
But on the part of the candidate, I think actually to be prepared for the fact that you'll be challenged on the fact that this is a step down for you and you might not choose to stay and be open about whether or not stepping up again is somewhere along the road for you.
You may well say, I hear what you say. Yes, maybe in two or three years time I'm going to be looking for that. But for the moment, I actually just want to get myself consolidated. To use the example you just shared there. I want to get myself consolidated back in Edinburgh, back in Scotland. I've had a great career so far, but I actually see the need for three or five years now to get things settled for my family, to make a contribution to wherever I'm working. I'm not really even looking at that next move, you know, within the next three to five years. Because then that means that the investment in recruiting somebody is not gonna. Is not gonna be like a false wrong word.
The return on investment is going to be reasonable. That's where I should have gone.
[00:45:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree, Nick. I think interviews, and I'm sure you prefer people for interviewing, Nick. But I think there's a certain degree a lot of the time the part of the problem with interviews is they're pretty subject. It's pretty subjective. They shouldn't be, but they're pretty subjective. Most people don't have who are doing interviews, don't have any interview training. Most of them a lot of the time don't even have a structure to the interviews. Typically that they're. And I think the danger with that is that assumptions can be made during or after the interview that could impact Negatively on you being offered the position or the person being offered the position. And I think when I prepare someone for interview, I think I know the key things the client wants to address. If they don't address them, you need to address them during the interview yourself. Because you run the risk then of walking into the interview with assumptions that are not correct about you. For example, that you're going to leave the job six months in with something better comes along, that you're going to undermine the hiring manager, whatever it is, those assumptions can be made.
But I think if to avoid those assumptions we made, it's important that during the interview in the right way that you address potential assumptions that could be made during the interview. So everything's crystal clear and risks are assessed before you walk out of that interview.
[00:46:29] Speaker B: Absolutely. A conversation, and I've had similar conversations with candidates. A conversation, an interview is a two way conversation. It's not just one way that you're on the receiving end. You've got to pony up the answers and the other person isn't expected to answer any questions. It depends maybe at what stage the interview's at. Sometimes Companies go through 2, 3, 4, 7 stage interview processes and so you've got to make sure that you, you understand what that particular conversation is about. But you're absolutely right that you have to, you know, be the one that surfaces topics if they're not doing it. So as a candidate, do be prepared to ask questions about, you know, the state of the company, where the company's going, the role itself, how valuable the role is, anything that comes to your mind, you've got to surface it. If they don't.
[00:47:23] Speaker A: Yeah, no, completely agree going past the interview stage. So someone gets the offer, Nick, which is fantastic, and they get the job offer. One thing you lose slightly and there is tactics around this is you lose a bit of leverage if you're available and don't have a job, you lose some leverage in negotiations around salary and terms.
What would you suggest, Nick?
If someone is available, the client knows they're available, they know that they can potentially offer them less money or offer them less favorable terms than they could if that person was in a position currently they were trying to get them out of. What tactics could that person use to approach that salary negotiation or the negotiations around package to ensure that they get a favourable outcome, given that they maybe don't have the leverage of a, a current position.
[00:48:15] Speaker B: Yeah, good, good point. I think a couple of things. I think number one, try so, so if, if you're offered a hundred Thousand try see whether they'll stretch to 120. You'll.
I don't think you'll get rejected for trying. I think at the point where an offer is made then they're clearly interested in you. You're the primary person that they're interested in. So to try for something a bit more is okay. If they're adamant that there's no more money available or there's no more benefit currently available, I would say have a think about planning for the future. How about saying, look, all right, I'll accept the job, but I would like the salary to be reviewed in three months, in six months time or something along those lines. Because what you're doing is you're giving the folks that are recruiting an opportunity to go back into the business and say he really wants 120. We've said no, he's accepted the hundred, but he wants to know if more money will be made available based on his performance during the next three months or six months. And you know, enshrine that in the offer letter. Don't, don't just make it verbal, let it be verbal. And I keep saying he could be a she, of course, but make sure that it's written down that you've actually got the offer that a salary review will take place in six months time or something along those lines. What else would you, would you say yourself? Have I left anything off the table there that could be used?
[00:49:50] Speaker A: I think the only other thing I would add, Nick, is leave something off the table. So when you go to negotiations with a client and I'll, I'll usually know from negotiating behalf of a candidate the full picture. Not always. I mean the candidate may hold things back from me, but I think if we go, maybe what we alluded to earlier in the conversation about scarcity being in demand, I think you'll be more in demand if they think you're in demand. So when you go to negotiation, I think you need to not lie at all. Definitely not. But give the impression that you've got other opportunities that are about to come to fruition and that isn't a given that you're going to take the role. I think you need to express that you're very, very interested. There's a lot you need to consider. There's a few other opportunities that you're looking at just now and you need to weigh things up. Don't put it straight out there that you will, don't put this, don't, don't appear desperate. Essentially, I think that that's the other thing, because once they, once they understand that you're going to take the role regardless, clients, well, sometimes unfairly use that to reduce the terms that they're offering. Right. So it's key to hold a little bit back. I think in negotiation you don't have to put all your cars on the table and give that impression that you do have other opportunities on the go. Even if you don't have anything that's going to immediately turn around. I just think that will get you a bit of extra money and a bit of extra leverage when it comes to negotiations.
But I think a key thing, Nick, and I think people do forget this, is that my experience in recruitment clients generally want to pay someone well and make a favorable offer. They're not looking to bring somebody in.
Discontent. They want people to come into the business positive. They want them to feel that, yeah, they're getting paid well now if that's not as much as they were earning in a previous role, they still want that person to understand that. For example, I think that was really good scenario you suggested that maybe they're not coming in on the salary that they were on previously they were hoping for, but XYZ could bring them up to that level. Or there's these other benefits. And companies, like always, by and large, want people to feel positive about the offer. So if they do not offer as much as you're hoping for, you know, it's unusual that they would want you to feel discontent about that and still take the offer because it's a bad way to start a new position.
[00:52:16] Speaker B: I think there's two things that come to mind listening to you. I love what you said there. I think it's all spot on. Number one as well is when you're made an offer, you don't have to say yes immediately. You can take out, take time out for a day, an hour, a week, whatever. Take time out to think about it. Because if the offer isn't quite what you were hoping for, then you know, taking time out will give you opportunity to chew over, take wise counsel from people that you trust as to whether or not that's a step worth taking or not. So don't answer yes straight away. Say I'll get back to you within and do that, get back to them. But I think the other thing as well is that interviewing can be a bit of a lottery because this may be the first time you've ever met the person making the offer is a step into the unknown a little bit. You've de risked the situation As a recruitment manager, you've de risked the situation a bit by meeting with them, talking with them, taking references and all of that. But if more money could be available, say after three months or six months, then you're actually offering further reward based on actual work and not just conversations. And I think that kind of de risks it for both parties a bit. The person coming in knows that there's more potentially available if they perform well. And for the organization you might hire an absolute gem of an employee and actually giving them the extra money in six months time is like a no brainer.
[00:53:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. One thing I've learned next 17 years in recruitment is interviews are no indication of performance. It's so unlinked, it's unreal. I mean, it's a terrible way if you think about it, for companies to make important decisions about who they hire. But so many times I'll have a client who's, you know, on the fence, maybe with that, you know, I say it doesn't happen all the time. So the vast majority of interviews, they're confident the person comes in, they do well, they get the offer. But there's the extremes where, you know, a client comes from the interview and they're absolutely buzzing. They think the person's best things sliced bread and they go in and they're out of the business in six months because they haven't performed or the relationship hasn't worked out. There's others where the client's very on the fence and they come around and say, we'll give this person a chance and they give them. And six months later the opposite. They think, fantastic. It's the best thing I've ever done, giving this person a chance. The point of getting at nick is the interview itself is no indication of the outcome of that person's performance. And it's such a strange way of hiring people really if you think about it just given that it's such a poor measure of, of an outcome.
[00:55:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it probably is what it is because of necessity, if you need to bring somebody into the business rather than promote from within, for example, then you bring somebody in. It's got to, there's got to be certain things. I know that there's competency tests, there's the psychometric tests, there's all sorts of things that recruitment managers can use. But ultimately it comes down to whether or not you feel this person will fit in. The culture will bring something to the role that the business needs and whether or not you really can trust your intuition or not. And you Know, you can't just use those external measures alone. It's got to be about how you feel about a person for a role.
[00:55:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And ultimately, rightly or wrongly, past performance is probably the best indicator of future performance. So I think the interview itself should definitely, like you say, have to have some weight because it's probably as good as we. As we've got at the moment.
[00:56:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:11] Speaker A: But exploring that person's past performance will probably give you a good indication of how they're going to come in and perform in that role, assuming a similar scenario.
[00:56:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:22] Speaker B: Couldn't agree more.
[00:56:24] Speaker A: There's a final thing I want to. To just ask you about, Nick, and it's something.
Something I wrote about, actually LinkedIn fairly recently is something that. I don't know your thoughts on this, but I think you're thinking what you're going to say, but never. My heart always sinks a little bit when the client phones me up and says, we've made a job offer to the person that they've accepted. And the reason is, I feel that two things. I feel the client probably has acted hastily and should reflect after the interview, and also that the person accepting the role has lost leverage. And they often come out and then they have further questions or they feel that, you know, the salary that they've accepted during the interview isn't what they were looking for.
What's your thoughts on that? Like, should. Should people be asking for a better time or how would you approach that?
[00:57:13] Speaker B: Are you talking about somebody receiving an offer kind of. At the interview?
[00:57:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:19] Speaker B: At the interview, yeah. Okay. It's happened to me twice.
It's worked out really well for me on both occasions. So I'm not sure in terms of my own experience that I'm the best qualified, but I absolutely accept what you say. And actually, in fairness, I was. I received the offer at the interview. I didn't give a yes at the interview. So I think my circumstances may be a kind of a. Somewhere in the middle of what you've just outlined there. I think you're right. I think employers should let the dust settle on the interview, reflect themselves, figure out whether this person is one that, you know, could fit in the organization. Are there any dissenting voices? Are there any concerns that surface quickly after the interview? Absolutely. I think for the person who receives an offer, I definitely think that it's worthwhile saying thank you very much, let me go away and think about this, because I think it shows a little bit of caution, which is fine. But I think it, above all of that it shows thoughtfulness and care, that actually you're not just going to react to something that's been offered to you. So I'm with you, actually. Yeah.
[00:58:43] Speaker A: So just to recap, Fantastic conversation. Just to recap, should someone take a position that's more junior? There's no right or wrong answer is that. I think it's you to evaluate. So just finally, Nick, your final thoughts. So somebody's at that crossroads. Just run me through how you would evaluate that with them.
[00:59:03] Speaker B: How I would evaluate it with them. I would find out from them whether or not they're now kind of in a place where they feel like they've got to react. And, you know, hopefully they're not. Hopefully they're at a point where they've still got a bit of Runway, they've still got a bit of money behind them to be able to take their time and think things through.
But I would say absolutely figure out whether or not the decision to take a more junior job is part of your plan for yourself or whether it is just a reaction to circumstances like running out of money because the redundancy is gone or whatever. And there are other avenues that anybody can examine. You know, they can go talk to their mortgage company about taking a holiday for six months or whatever it is that they need. So it's not like we're in. We're in that kind of final place. So I would say just be thoughtful around all the options that you've got available and the reason why you are taking this decision and be absolutely solid in the responses that you're going to give when the questions come from a prospective employer.
[01:00:09] Speaker A: Great advice, Nick. And if anyone's listening to this, I would recommend and is in this position, reach out to Nick and have a chat to him. Wake things up and it will all work out well in the end. It.
Thanks again, Nick, and really appreciate your time and hopefully you join me again next week.
[01:00:28] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thanks very much, Andrew. Again, it's been an engaging conversation on a topic that is very real.
[01:00:35] Speaker A: Absolutely. Thanks, Nick.
[01:00:37] Speaker B: Thank you.
