Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Ask the coach 23 with Nick Sellers. How you doing Nick?
[00:00:05] Speaker B: I'm very well Andrew, thank you. How are you?
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Yeah I'm well, thanks. Been very quick week and yeah busy, so all's well.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: That's been my experience as well. It's been, it's been a fast week this one.
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Brilliant Nick. A common conversation I have, and you'll have seen it many times over the years is when somebody starts a new position, they sold the dream at Interview and they think everything's going to be rosy when they go in but they start a new role and they quick realize that the reality doesn't quite match up to expectations. For example, they come in and they discover unhealthy team dynamics or a misrepresented scope of responsibilities. So Nick, what's the first thing someone should do if they find themselves in that position?
[00:00:50] Speaker B: I think the first thing that they have to do is to paint or create an accurate picture.
You know, what we've been told beforehand, what we've not experienced for ourselves, you know, is kind of created something of a view for us. But when we, when we go in we then start to gather the real information, the real insights, the hands on kind of stuff that we can, we can then do something with. So I would say first of all create an accurate picture.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Excellent. And creating that accurate picture, what should they do with it Nick? Is that something they should be taking to somebody to discuss or is that something they should be absorbing themselves in the first instance?
[00:01:33] Speaker B: I think careful listening when we first go into a company is really key. It's not about us establishing ourselves as the big person, the, the boss. It's about us actually just trying to understand one of, one of the phrases that comes from Stephen Covey's book the 7 Habit Habits of Highly Effective People I think goes something like seek first to understand, then to be understood. And I think that's the kind of the, the key order of things is when we go into a new place we don't have to sweep in and start to change things, we have to have a reason for change and so we need to understand what's going on there first. And so I think that when we go in there's always a kind of a 30, 60, 90 day grace period before the hierarchy have any expectation that we're going to start delivering. I think that it would be a shock for any senior manager more senior than us let's say when we go in and immediately start changing things without any form of discussion. So I would say first try to understand what's going on, create that clear picture. And as the picture starts to emerge, there's an opportunity to discuss that with our line manager, with other senior stakeholders as to what we're actually finding and why it might not be the right thing to continue with.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I think your point about the grace period for the 30, 60, 90 days, especially interview stage, I think it's good to establish what expectations are in that initial period before accepting the role so that if things aren't going to plan, you can refer back to what was discussed at interview and hold and be held accountable to what was agreed.
I think we've had it all, Nick. When we've had a new director or manager or senior leader put upon us, and there's always a time where there's a little bit of a period where it takes to build trust. But on the flip side, often senior leaders can come in and a team that's established with their own relationships and healthy and unhealthy alliances. What can a new leader come in and do to quickly build trust and authority in the new role?
[00:03:57] Speaker B: I think going back to that phrase I mentioned, seek first to understand. Actually, when we go in, we don't know. We only see what's on the surface initially. Then we start to see what's just below the surface and then we dig deeper. It takes a little bit of time. But I think even just seeking first to understand builds a degree of trust because people appreciate being listened to. So we go in, we don't assume anything. We, we find out through conversation. We find out by asking the team to, you know, give us information, share with us what their observations are, what their opinions are. It doesn't mean to say we have to accept everything that's given to us, but it does mean that we are asking, people generally like to have their opinions asked.
And we've talked about that on other episodes of the podcast and I, I think we can use that. We can say to somebody who works for us, somebody that works in another department, you know, so what do you observe? What do you think? And we just build a picture.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: And something that might be fairly common when senior leaders take a position is that departmental performance has potentially been overstated and that could potentially undermine a new leader's credibility coming into that team. So how can a new leader address this honestly and start reshaping expectations of both their role and the department?
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it's about re establishing the baseline, kind of starting with what the current truth is, what's been reported before is what's been reported.
I'm not going to say you can't undo it. But if there's been inaccuracies in the way that performance has been calculated or reported, then there has to come a point for resetting things. And so reset by starting with the current truth, identifying what the baseline now is and why it's different than it was previously. Because it could be that the baseline previously or the reporting previously was based on a certain approach, you know, a bullying environment, maybe to cajole people to do things, rather than one which is a healthier one. And so if we're going to reset the model, we need to start with something and explain why it might be different to the past.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Absolutely. So obviously the new leaders coming in, but if they've got upper management above them and they realize there's discrepancies, how can they raise these discrepancies with their seniors without coming across as overly critical or defensive?
[00:06:41] Speaker B: That's, that's also a good question. I think it's one of being honest, being open about what you're observing.
We don't have to, you know, overly criticize predecessors, overly criticize the team, but we can paint a picture of this is what I see. This is why I don't see it as being right for the business or right for the department. And I'd like to, I'm going to, or whatever, start making changes. So it's like we're actually very often in a business, the senior managers don't really know what the performance of the team has been like. It's just, it's kind of fitted in. But when somebody new comes in, they've got an opportunity to reset, to repaint and actually, I guess, provide new vision for where this could go to that would excite somebody. I think in a senior management position where somebody that's been newly promoted or newly brought into the business starts to set out their vision for their department, for their function, but also starts to set out what the benefits to the business will be of this.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. And just to flip it on to the other side and the staff and the team with a new leader coming in, there'll be staff who will be pleased to see the new leader because maybe they didn't have the best relationship with the previous leader and there'll be others who used the previous leader as a benchmark and potentially make things challenging for, for the new leader. So how can somebody coming into a new position inspire withdrawn team members to re. Engage with, with the team and to engage with them?
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Relationship is a one to one thing. I, I don't think we can have what I'd call collective relationship. So I think every member of the team deserves the, the investment of time and understanding. You know, going back to that seeking first to understand thing, you know, everybody's got a different style. Some people are less open naturally, maybe more reserved naturally. Understand the characteristics, the profile of each person in the team and figure out how you can adapt as a leader, adapt your style to get the best out of each person. If somebody's current position is based on a previous experience of their manager, it may be that you've got to work hard to actually show them that your management style is different, that you will listen to them better, that you will give them responsibility, you'll give them autonomy, whatever it is they yearn for.
But it is actually around getting everybody on board. But it's a one to one effort that takes place, but it turns into a collective thing as the team starts to function.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think the onus is on the incumbent team leader or manager, director to build those relationships as opposed to the team members? Do you think it's, it's their responsibility, Nick?
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Good question. That one. Relationships are two way street. I, I think that there will be some people who are reluctant because, because maybe they've been burned. So I'm thinking about members of the team who've been previously burned because they've made overtures, they've tried to be helpful, nice, supportive, productive, and it's not been appreciated and so they're reluctant to do it the next time round. That's where the building of trust comes in.
I think that the effort has to start with the manager because ultimately culture comes from the head. So the head of a business really defines what the culture of the business is. And so the head of a team will define what they want the culture of their team to be. So I feel as though, yeah, it is the leader's responsibility to be the one that kind of sets things out, but then they have to encourage others to come and join in to participate.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'd agree with that, Nick. An instance earlier in my career I had a, a brilliant director that I reported into who actually left to start his own business. And the new director that came in, he was very much, I think of the opinion that the team should have to prove themselves to him and certain team members really made the effort with them and engaged with them and I don't know for a better one of the work. Brown nosed him a little bit and, and he liked that. And there was other team members, including myself. I got him with my job, but I didn't particularly make the effort. But he, he certainly didn't make the effort and, and I found it a, a difficult situation and ultimately it didn't work out well for, for him or, or the team or the business. He wasn't there for very long, but I thought potentially in my view that was poor leadership, not to really make the effort with the team in the first instance.
Yeah, his view was very much on individual team members to prove themselves to him and not vice versa. And I find it quite difficult, difficult dynamic.
So, no, I'd agree with your advice, Nick.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: I think, you know, work is such a big part of our lives. Even if we come in at nine and go home at five every day, it still accounts for 35, 40 or maybe 45 hours a week of our, of our time.
It's such a big part, it's such an important part because we work to earn a living, I'm assuming. And so why can't we make work something that is enjoyable? And does it have to be challenging, difficult in a negative way, or can we make it challenging, positive? And I think that's the role of the leader. But if the leader's making that effort to make it an inclusive, enjoyable thing to do, then I actually think the team members then need to step up and say, I'm in.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. As a two way street. But I, I do, I do agree it needs to be there, the leader probably leading the way in that regard to build the relationship in the first instance and then hopefully the engagement from the team members will follow.
So this will be very common. New leaders come into an organization and they suspect or they feel or they identify that there are deeper cultural issues beyond their department. How should they approach this with the broader organization?
[00:13:09] Speaker B: I think there needs to be, if you will, a kind of a raising of awareness.
Somebody that's a departmental head that comes in cannot change the whole company's culture, but they can work in areas where that recognition can be gained and maybe some change might start to happen. If it's across the whole organization, that's tough. As a departmental head, you're in control, you're responsible for one part. But getting the whole business to change means it's got to be escalated right to the top. If it's difficult relationships between two departments, between yours and another department that you have to work with regularly or even infrequently actually, then go speak with the department head there and understand their Perspective, Explain what you observe, explain how much better this could be if this cultural situation could be addressed and agree how it might be addressed and what the benefits of doing that would be for both departments. So I would say, you know, when you see that it's outside of your immediate control, I think then that's where again, relationship comes in, the influence. We can't control other departments, we can't control the business, but we can influence things.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: Absolutely. Nick, I don't know if you've ever had it in your career where you've had to differentiate between. There's been someone in your team who is not particularly good at their job, but who you value personally and you have a good personal relationship with.
Something I've always struggled with in, anytime I've been managing people is, it's, it's very, I find it difficult to discipline or not discipline with the harsh award, but to hold accountable people who, who are respect and values as, as people, but maybe aren't doing their job as effectively as they could be. Have you had instances in your career, Nick, where you've had that situation? How do you address it? What's your view on that?
[00:15:21] Speaker B: I think I, yeah, I, I, I, it's not so much that I've had a problem, let's use the word disciplining, because it is about changing somebody's behavior.
It's not so much that the closeness of relationship has got in the way. It's, it's actually, for me, been the opposite way around that. The closeness of relationship enables me to be more open. When somebody hasn't met a standard that I think they're perfectly capable of, I find it much more difficult to discipline somebody that I don't really know that I've not got that closeness to, because then it, it means that I'm kind of judging their activity rather than what I know they're capable of doing. If you see the difference.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
[00:16:11] Speaker B: That's so, so I think, I think every, every team manager, every, every head of a function needs to understand each individual person what makes them tick, what their capabilities are and help them to expand those capabilities. You know, maybe through training, through coaching, mentoring or however that goes.
But then hold them to account because ultimately we want everybody to function at their best for the good of the business, but also for the good of themselves. We grow by being stretched. We don't grow by being allowed to withdraw from the team and go away and just live in a very comfortable space.
[00:16:51] Speaker A: Absolutely, Nick. If a leader is coming into a business and they See that the reality doesn't meet expectations and they identify that early on. What are the major red flags that they should look for that say, get out of there as soon as possible as opposed to embrace the challenge? What would those red flags be and how would that decision making process, how should they approach that decision making process? Process to either stay or go?
[00:17:16] Speaker B: That, that's a, that's a tough one. I think every, every individual's situation is going to be. It's going to comprise two things. Number one, what they observe the situation now to be that they're in role. Second is going to be their willingness or their tenacity to see it through.
And it might be that there's a bit of testing of boundaries here. One of the questions you asked earlier is about, you know, who go talk to when you notice that things are not as previously described.
So I think now that you're in a role and you've found out what you've found out, then you need to go start testing whether or not there's a willingness in the wider organization to change. If the problems are exclusively within your team, then is the wider organization going to support you in changing how that team performs? If it's a wider performance issue or a wider cultural issue, is the wider business your boss or your boss's boss or the other department heads, are they going to participate in helping drive through change? It's very difficult to be an island.
They say no man is an island. And I think we need to be very careful that we don't just position ourselves as somebody who's a troublemaker and, and not, and not have any support. We need support within an organization. That's, that's probably the sum of it. And the time to decide on change might be when you know that you are not ever going to get that, that support.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: Understand? Yeah, yeah, good advice. What I'm hearing is test the waters, test the boundaries. And if you feel that the support isn't there, that might be a kind of pivotal moment to then look outside of the organization.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: And if I can just add, change might only take a few weeks, or at least the beginnings of change might only take a few weeks, it might take a few months. It could be that the project is going to be years long. And you know, as we go into change and managing change and improving cultures, we've got to understand what we're getting involved in and whether or not we've got the stamina to see it through. Whether that stamina is a collective stamina on the part of the business or whether it's our own personal stamina.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: And I think many times I've seen it, Nick, and I've been very, I'm quite, I suppose not massively impatient. But I think we do underestimate how long change takes. Quite often it's not instantaneous, especially in a complex organization. It does take time and you have to be on board for the journey because it's not, it's not something that's going to change in a day or week or months. It's incremental over years and I think it's easy to lose sight of that.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Change does, does take time. You know, whether you are looking to lose weight, you know, get 10 kilos off, you don't do that overnight. And, and very often if we go for the quick fix to something, then yeah, it comes off really quick. But actually it's almost like then there's a reaction to that and a good deal of it bounces back on again. And it can be the same when we' driving change. That change can be something that we achieve comfortably and safely or it can be something that we drive through but leave a trail of destruction behind us.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Definitely. I think, yeah, the latter's driving change through a trailer. Destruction is probably not the best way to do it. Typically in business, unless you've got a serious mandate or, or otherwise you're going to put people offside.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you, you end up with burned out people. You end up with irrevocably damaged relationships. You might end up with, you know, a department or a business that is completely trashed, you know, unexpected consequences of that rapid change. So, you know, we need to be sensitive, I think, to, I guess if we treat the outcome is something that we want to arrive at is the kind of framework, you know, what would the successful outcome be in say, one year from now. But then the goals that we have are actually the steps that take us towards that successful outcome.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: And I do think I've worked in organizations that, oh, organizations continually change. But there was one organization particular that I worked within that was going through a change program. So it was very specifically a period of change and sometimes you would look around and you wouldn't feel there, there had been any change. But if you were to actually take a step back and say, well, three months ago, where were we with this six months ago? And you would actually. I wasn't good at doing it, Nick, at all. I probably just had my head down. But if I was to step back, say six months ago, there has been Those, those changes made. And, but again we're talking fairly long periods. It wasn't counted in days or even weeks. It was, you know, if there was any significant changes that were happening, months, months or years, but they were happening. It's just you'd have to step back and measure those changes to see them quite often.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Well, I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's measuring change. Somebody that comes into a business, they come in at a moment in time. What they observe is the, the result of history, you know, what got the business, what got the department to where it is now. Sometimes that can be tremendous, you know, really great. And the person's coming in on that previous success, sometimes it can be unhealthy. And so the person then is, is about changing direction. So change and growth are not easy things to do. And I think that's why time is needed because we want to take everybody with us.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, although as we've talked about in previous weeks, Nick, the speed of changes is, is rapid, especially with technology and AI coming in and potentially maybe the organizations who are going to do perform the best and the professionals who are going to perform the best over the coming years are going to be the people who can cope with that change and adapt to, and drive it through quickly to keep a competitive advantage.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and you know, maybe the question then is around what is, what is quick? You know, are we talking about something which is rapid forward progress, maintainable, you know, we've got the stamina to keep this going or is it a short sudden burst of energy that actually we couldn't sustain for more than like 100 meter 10 second sprint? And therein, you know, lies the big question. How long does the, how quickly does it need to be achieved? Why does it need to be achieved that quickly? What would the next step be after that? Where it leading to?
[00:24:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. So just to recap, what's your final bit of advice would you give to a leader who might feel disillusioned with the reality of a new role, especially if they didn't feel what is what, what they'd signed up for. What's, what's your, your final bit of advice and the process you'd recommend them?
[00:24:34] Speaker B: I would say don't, don't be inclined to be hasty.
Assess your situation. So you've come in, it's not as you expected it to be. I always like the idea of sitting down with a clean sheet of paper in front of you, writing down the pros and cons and whether or not the cons, the things that aren't working well are things that can be endured, whether they can be addressed, what effort would be required. Because on the pro side of things, we're in a job, we've got a salary, we might have a degree of stability there, there might be a degree of expectation which is integrated, invigorating for us. Just assess your situation before you decide on your course of action. But do be prepared that if you're going to drive change through, it's going to require stamina. But again, you know, just the small steps that are achieved as you go in the right direction could be tremendously invigorating.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Absolutely. Great points, Nick. Very insightful as always. If anybody, either leader would like to reach out to you in your coaching capacity or your business mentoring capacity, what's the best way for them to reach out to you, Nick?
[00:25:51] Speaker B: I think the easiest way is probably go to LinkedIn. So you'll find me as Nick Sellers coach on LinkedIn. And there's a little link there at the top of my profile where you can schedule a quick call, no charge, and it's just that we can have a chat and figure out just exactly what it is that the need is and then go from there. Or alternatively, nicksellers.com There's a, there's a contact form there and. And you can actually schedule an appointment that way too.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: Excellent. Sounds good. Thanks again as always, Nick, and hopefully you'll join me again next week.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: Thanks very much, Andrew. It's a pleasure. See you next week.
