Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, Nick.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: How are you doing? Ask the coach, week three. Thanks again for joining me.
[00:00:05] Speaker A: I'm very well, thanks, Andrew. Thanks for asking. And it's a pleasure to be here with you.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Excellent. First question's a very common one and I'm sure you've had it, and I've had it in my career is that you want to ask for a razor promotion, but you feel hesitant to approach your manager or director about this. What's the best way to approach that conversation? Nick.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: I think there's a couple of sides to this. I think it's difficult to ask for a raise or a promotion on the back of, let's say, poor performance, poor timekeeping, all of that kind of thing. So do make sure that your own personal credentials in that way are actually in a solid place.
Then flipping it around. Look at it from your line manager's perspective that actually you're looking for a raise, you're looking for a promotion. How easy is it going to be for them to be able to do that for you? If you're an outstanding performer, then it might be much easier for them to do that. It may be that the conversation that you have with them is going to be around. What more do I need to do to be able to get a promotion? What more do I need to do to be able to get a bigger than normal merit increase this year? So depending on your relationship with your manager, it might be that you want to just start probing things, but do make sure that your own side of things is squeaky clean. Because any kind of hint of underperformance, I was going to call it weakness, but I'm talking about not personal weakness, but performance weakness could actually be construed as a potential risk to the company. But it's good to have these conversations and actually just test the waters. Also, pick your moment as well.
If you're right in the middle of month end or something like that, it's probably not the best time to go to somebody in a senior position and ask for something that's kind of like coming out of left field.
Do wait till you've got that moment or schedule something ahead of time and tell them that you want to talk about your career, you want to talk about your pay prospects and give them a chance to think about it before you actually have the conversation so they don't just come into it and get ambushed.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. In my experience, it's best to schedule the tricky conversations. Then hopefully you're getting them. You're director in the right mindset beforehand.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Actually, if I could just say, Andrew, I think sometimes what makes a difficult conversation difficult is our lack of preparation and the way we approach it. Maybe it doesn't need to be as difficult. It's just that we're nervous about having conversations like this, and so we turn something that could just be a kind of a business like conversation into something that actually has got emotion plugged into it, and that just makes it a challenge.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Absolutely no great advice.
And a very common question to get now. And probably one of the positive legacies from COVID is I see a lot more people valuing work life integration and requesting part time schedules, both female and male.
But I think people are concerned, if they're a high performer, how it will be perceived for them to go and ask to work part time or reduced hours.
How should this request be positioned, and what are the potential objections that a manager might have if you go to make this request? Nick.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Right. And this is a kind of a similar question. Is it because it's asking something for self?
So whether it's a pay rise or a promotion, we're asking for something for ourselves. Now we're talking about it from a different angle, which is taking a look at whether you can actually step down from full time to part time. And again, just as with the others, there might be potential risks in mind for your manager, for the company, in you not being there the whole time, being there full time, especially if you're an outstanding performer. They would really want to know, I guess, just exactly why is it you want to do this? So it's almost like stand in front of the mirror and practice what you're going to say, what your reasons would be. If you're doing it because you want to spend more time with family, that's fine. If you want to do it to avoid burnout, if you want to do it to pursue other interests, do be very careful that you do prepare yourself, though, for that conversation, because there's going to be concern on their side. Potentially. It might be that they work in a culture where actually, this is perfectly fine. We're very used to people making requests like that, and rather than being worried about it, they'll embrace it.
So kind of do a bit of research as well, just to make sure that going into that conversation, you're prepared and you're not asking in a way that just makes it really challenging for them. And it may be that your request to go part time may not be permanent. It could be that you just want to do this for a couple of years or something like that. Think about those things. What is there that you can load into that conversation that will make it seem not quite so daunting, not quite so difficult for them to say yes.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Do you think it shows a lack of ambition, Nick, if someone is to go and ask for part time or reduced hours?
[00:05:50] Speaker A: No, I don't think it does. I don't think it's about lack of ambition. It's about. You mentioned, as you were asking that question, about that kind of work life balance that people are looking for. It may be that this request is a temporary thing and in which case you might have an example, an elderly relative that you want to spend more time with. It might be that it's something to do with the children growing up. It might be because you want to study part time. None of those things are necessarily lacking ambition. They're about actually achieving a balance and actually you can sell it in a very positive way that actually you'd rather stay with the company part time than leave because they won't give you part time. So it's very positive in that respect. And as I say, nothing's ever forever. It's very possible that a few weeks, months, years down the line, you're actually looking for that step back to full time employment and even a promotion and beyond.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah, no, great. Good advice, Nick. I think that's the conversation. I have a lot with professionals. Is they looking for that integration so that, like myself today, go pick up the kids at 03:00 and then get back to work and do some calls in the evening and have that flexibility to start a little later or finish a little early and ensure that the work gets done over the course of a week or a month, as opposed to between nine till five each day. And I think that's such a common request. It's positive that a lot of what, more employers are starting to embrace that model these things?
On a similar point, if you're returning from a career break, and that could be.
Certainly at the moment, there are some very, very good professionals who've got gaps in the CV, not through any choice of their own, but due to it being a tough job market and there hasn't been quite the right opportunity for them and they've been between jobs for maybe six months, how best can they address that gap on their cv and how can they confidently discuss that at interview?
[00:08:03] Speaker A: I think I would always promote honesty.
So if you've got a gap, if you took time out, then say you took time out. But again, this is a bit like that request to go part time. So, you're right, this question is quite similar.
Be prepared with your story. Rehearse it in front of the mirror.
It's almost like you're anticipating the questions that are going to come.
So, yeah, be prepared and do it in a way which is not just about you getting your story across, but actually giving it to the person on the other side of the table in a digestible format. So don't be vague, don't be unclear, don't look shifty, as in you don't really want to have this conversation. Tackle it head on, even lead the question yourself. You might be asking why my cv's got a gap there. Well, this is the reason.
So rather than leaving it unsaid and hoping nobody notices, actually be prepared to say, I took a break because, and if it was because of burnout or stress, then say that things were getting very heavy. And so what I did is I stepped away for a while.
If it was because of other things in life that needed to have some attention, then explain that and explain how the relationship with your previous employer had been left. Because inevitably, when you apply for a job, if you're a candidate that's under serious consideration, at some point somebody will want to go talk to a previous employer to find out what they can.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: Definitely, yeah, I like that.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: Nick.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: I think if you can explain and tackle the gap in your cv, it's never an issue. I think it's only an issue if you're shifty about it and you can't give a good reason as to why. I think a good reason is you could be looking for a job in the current economy, and that's perfectly feasible.
But on the flip side, Nick, what do you think? If you're job hunting for a period of time, should you be doing some professional development or additional activities that you can discuss to cover that period?
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really interesting point.
I've worked with a couple of people who were looking for work. They might have been made redundant or they might have just decided to take a step down or back for a while and then get back into the job market. And I talk to them about things like volunteering is a great way of actually kind of, you know, contributing to the community, doing some good. Maybe you learn new skills, maybe you meet new people through doing things like that. And if it's not volunteering, then actually, yeah, some of that kind of personal professional development stuff, you can take courses, you can always learn new skills during that time. So I definitely think that periods, I was thinking particularly of people that have been made redundant, often that comes around very suddenly and so they may not have a great long lead in time to then actually being on the market. And so just being able to use that time sensibly, valuably, it scrubs up well in terms of how you're viewed, I think. Because you actually just didn't fritter the time away.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Yeah, no green I'm seeing actually a lot more, for example, newly qualified accountants taking a gap year just now. I think it is probably because people missed out on the potential gap year round about finishing university due to Covid, and they've then gone back and taking that opportunity without fault. So always viewed positively. I think it's a good topic of conversation, typically an interview, and can add to your cv to some extent, and it's certainly never an issue. So I would always encourage people, if they want to take that break, to go ahead and do it, whether it's between earlier in the career or any given point. But I suppose it's easier to do these things earlier in your career typically, isn't it? Yeah.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Just thinking back as well to some of the questions that we've answered over the previous weeks, Andrew, sometimes, you know, the question of stress and burnout comes into things. It's probably healthier, better to actually recognize early on that you might be experiencing something that's ultimately not going to go in your favor if you don't address it. And actually maybe taking some time out to be able to avoid having to change employer if you do take a career break, maybe it was one that was your choice to take, maybe it was a choice that was actually kind of imposed on you. But however it goes, kind of recognizing where you are, assessing the possibilities, the opportunities.
We've talked about things like values and beliefs and things like that. These are all things that we can use this time to take stock of who we are, what we aspire to do, where we want to go next, but most importantly, how we're going to get there and then embark on the journey.
[00:13:38] Speaker B: There's a theme on some of these answers, and I kind of think it's very much being in control of your career and being in the driver's seat and not a passenger, which absolutely, I agree is very important. And I think a skill that a lot of people maybe don't have earlier in their career, and certainly I struggled with for a long time, and it's a question to get asked about is if you need to be more assertive or you essentially need to be more assertive or you're getting feedback from your director that you need to be more assertive, but it doesn't come naturally. How can you develop that skill to be more assertive and in control?
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Assertiveness is something that we need in the business environment. You know, we've got personalities, egos, all these things come together.
Sadly, when we're not confident, then we usually fail to be assertive when we are in a position of responsibility. But we must get our point across. Sometimes that just comes across as aggressive, not assertive. So assertive is about being clear as to what your goals are and being determined that actually those must be the goals. Because assertiveness always involves another person, doesn't it? So whether it's a member of your own team or another team that you're leading, however that goes, being assertive is actually about being confident and clear in your communications and being tenacious enough to actually deal with any objections that might come from others. Now, it doesn't mean to say that we can't listen to what people have got to say, but if we're going to be assertive, it is all about reaching the goal. It is all about making sure that there's progress in the right direction. And really, ultimately, you want people to come with you on that journey.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: Definitely. So it's being assertive a skill that you can develop and learn? Nick, it's not something we're born with, is it?
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Typically, no. I think we can learn how to be assertive.
I think there'll be learning and development courses that you can take. But ultimately, it's going to come down to applying what you learn. It's going to come down to practicing as well. Experimenting.
You can't just have one approach to being assertive. It's a question of having a range of skills in your pocket. So that depending on who you're dealing with, what the situation is, how far things have gone in a direction you don't want them to go, that you actually have ways of actually bringing it back on track and moving things ahead.
Listening is a part of assertiveness as well as clear communication. So it is very much about relationships and pulling everybody. Sorry, I'm stuttering a bit there. Everybody pulling in the same direction, definitely.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: Just to flip that on his head. Nick, we've all, certainly, I have come across people who are very assertive in the workplace, and you don't always agree with them, but sometimes you'll back down just because to avoid a certain amount of conflict or to avoid a clash of assertiveness. How do you manage relationships with people who are very assertive in a way that you can hold your own and be assertive back without causing conflict? How do you do that?
[00:17:11] Speaker A: Remember that just because somebody's assertive doesn't mean to say that they're right, so you can have a difference of opinion and you can express that difference of opinion.
So just because somebody's confident, you get this, don't you? In meetings, you'll have somebody that just talks and they're very confident, and they talk like they're knowledgeable, but that doesn't mean to say that they're right. So when you've got something that's very assertive, where you've got something that's very confident, then asking questions is usually a pretty good way of finding out with what the clarity is that you need. Even if you don't agree with the objective, then you have to reach a point where you say, if this person's more senior, or in a position of responsibility where they're, like, leading a project that you're a part of, even if you don't agree, you may well have to at some point say, I don't think that's going to work, but I'm going to go along with it because you've asked me to.
So you're right. Assertiveness is something. It's a skill we can learn, but we're going to learn it partly through understanding techniques, but also partly through exercising it, putting it into practice.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think mentioned recently, Nick, we're doing the Scottish Finance Leaders survey, and I think one of the key bits of feedback and areas of development for senior finance leaders, that the flag is managing senior stakeholders. And I'd imagine potentially that comes down to a certain amount of assertiveness and that being recognized as an area of development, even for CFO's finance directors, that level of people.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
You and I have had conversations around these profiling instruments, that there are things like insights, discovery, and stuff like that. Understanding the other person is a key part of, I think, assertiveness in the sense that in order to be able to communicate with somebody, you have to be able to speak in a way which is their language, something that's easily understood. So probably best not to load somebody who's a creative thinker with tons of detail, because you'll lose their attention, and that may lead to conflict, because the different personality styles start to conflict with each other and so forth. So when at a senior level, my understanding, my belief is that at a senior level, where you're actually trying to get everybody to agree on a course of action. It's best to present the options that are available in a language which is understandable to them. Don't make people work too hard to be able to get there. Don't just speak your own language. Speak what you need to speak in a language that they understand.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Great advice. Excellent. Thanks again, Nick. I really appreciate your time and very insightful as always. And yeah I've got some great questions for you coming up next week. A couple off the back of this survey. Hopefully you'll be free to catch up again next week.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: That's great. Thanks for inviting me on again. And Andrew, I do genuinely hope that some of the things we talk about are valuable to the folks that have asked the questions and they can put them to good use.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. I have no doubt. Thanks Nick. We'll catch up soon.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: Thanks very much. Bye.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: Cheers.
