Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Ask the Coach 22, with executive coach and business mentor Nick Sellers. How you doing, Nick?
[00:00:07] Speaker B: I'm very well, thank you, Andrew. As I mentioned to you, I've been under the weather a bit this week, but I'm actually heading in the right direction. So all is well and I'm cheerful.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: Excellent. Good to hear you're on the mend. So, Nick, as a recruiter, often the catalyst for professionals to reach out to me is obviously the realization that they need a change in their careers. They know they want something different, but either come to me with lots of ideas of what they're looking for or no ideas, which are both equally challenging but also probably overwhelming. So, Nick, this week I'd like to discuss with you, how do people break through that feeling of being stuck and overwhelmed and explore practical ways to start making changes that count? So what should we do when we know we need to make that change, Nick, but we feel overwhelmed by the process? Where should we start?
[00:01:02] Speaker B: I think actually starting by, I guess, actually listening to yourself early. You know, very often professionals, executives, people generally wait until change is forced on them. You know, when it's kind of like that point of no return, there's a redundancy or some major event has happened in the workplace that has been building up for a while and then there's this kind of like, oh, right now I need to do something. When actually we often have a sense earlier than that that either our values are not aligned with where the business goals are or that we ourselves a feeling like, you know, work is a bit like chewing on the same thing for too long. It's lost all its taste. We're not excited about it, we're not interested. So I think, I think start listening to yourself a little earlier is a good place to be. And your question really was, I guess, around, how do we get started? I think get started by starting to do some research.
When we talk about research, we're not talking about academic research. We're starting to talk about take a look around, lift your head up, figure out what there is outside of the place that you work.
Does other stuff require you to go and get further training, another qualification? Is there something that you could have as a hobby that you could turn into something that earns money? There's lots of different ways, but I think starting to just take a look around at the possibilities is a good place to start.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Great advice, Nick. I think you made a good point there that often we know change is coming, but for whatever reason we put that back of our minds, which is exactly the wrong thing to do. We should probably be embracing that change and planning for it. Why do you think it is, Nick, that all do that? Generally?
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we're uncomfortable with change. I think we find that even if we're in a place where we work, where it's not really very interesting, not very engaging, it doesn't really stretch us, it's comfortable, it's familiar, it's even safe, you know, and it's not always as safe as we think it is. I've spoken with leaders over time who've been through five or six major corporation reorganizations and come out feeling as though they've survived every time. And, you know, they've maybe worked there for 20 years, but actually in the end they ended up not being safe. They were just relieved to have survived. Not a great place to be.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I used to work with a guy and he always used to say an expression which I like. He says, make sure you're the hammer and not the nail.
See, what's the other expression? The only thing is constant in life is change. So we know change is going to come. So it's better to plan ahead and embrace it, which is. I know what you always correctly preach, Nick.
So how do we know, Nick? I think we all have days and maybe weeks when we wake up and we think we need a change, but it might just be a phase or a period. And in fact, we don't need a change. It's just we're maybe stuck in a rut.
And we can navigate out that rut quite easily. But what would be the signs, Nick, that somebody needs to make a significant change?
How long should that feeling last before they address it?
[00:04:40] Speaker B: I think actually something that you've just said is the trigger there, that, yeah, there'll be days when we get up in the morning and we don't feel very motivated. We feel fed up. There might have been a conversation or an incident in the workplace, an experience that we sort of say, I don't really want to live with this. But, you know, we think about it, we reflect on it, and then we say, it's not that bad. And so we decide to carry on. That's fine. Stuff like that happens. Life isn't always about being, you know, cheerful on the up and all the rest of it. There are events that happen.
But I think what happens is we maybe, as we reflect, and this is important, we need to reflect as we reflect on those experiences, if they're coming closer together, if they're actually taking us into a deeper Dive more frequently. We start to sense that actually this isn't just isolated, this is part of the trend. And then that's maybe the point where we start to say, I now need to be serious about being in control of change rather than on the receiving end of it.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Before we. I know we were discussing that change is often forced upon people, and that's when changes happen as opposed to conscious changes. And I suppose you're much better to be consciously making those changes. So what would be the process, Nick, if you did decide, you know, things need to change, whether it be within your career or your life, what would be the process? What would be the first thing you would. You would. Well, as I mentioned.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Sorry I mentioned, research, you know, actually be interested in other things. You know, start to pay a bit of attention, spend a little time on understanding, you know, interests, as I said, other jobs, other industries, other roles that, you know, you could actually go take a look at. I think sometimes we don't spend a lot of time on those things because we don't see them as important, but start to raise their importance a bit so that our interest, our engagement with them starts to grow. We may be surprised that as we research something that actually looks more interesting than we thought it was, and I would say be open to all possibilities, it can be very easy for us to narrow our options down. You know, I don't like the look of that. Well, why don't you like the look of it? Is it because it's looking a bit foreign to you? Is it looking like it could potentially be really boring? Well, if you dig a bit deeper, you might find out that it's actually not that boring and it's really interesting and engaging, in which case a possibility opens up. So don't discount too many possibilities, don't discount too many options before you've actually gone and really taken a serious look at them.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Quite often, Nick, people will come to me and this is purely looking at change from maybe a job perspective or career perspective. They'll come to me and I'll say, what are you looking for next? And they'll say, I don't know. And you drill down. And it really quite difficult in a lot of areas to understand what the actual driver is behind that change. But they know they need to change something. And sometimes it's never that apparent. It's not money, it's not that they're unhappy in their role, it's not that they're desperately seeking a new challenge, but they know they need to make a Change, and I think probably an issue, Nick, and I'd like to just discuss this with you, is that they don't have goals.
So they know they need to make that change, but they don't have goals related to that change. Could you just go through, like, how is change related to goals and how do the two interact and is it important to have goals or is it okay to make a change without having goals at the end of it?
[00:08:32] Speaker B: I think it can be dangerous to effect change without having a goal. It's a bit like a journey that we undertake.
I live in the Scottish Borders and if I want to go to Edinburgh, then Edinburgh becomes my destination, it becomes my goal. Now, there isn't one road between where I live and Edinburgh. There are several roads. So do I want to take the fast route? Do I want to take the scenic route? Is there a place that I want to stop off at on the way up to Edinburgh? I'm talking in a kind of a metaphor here, but I think it's the same for us in Korea and it's the same for us with our interests in life that we need to know where we want to go. And actually it's interesting that you mentioned this because very often when I'm talking to business leaders as a coach, one of the first things we need to do is establish, well, where is it you want to be? Coaching is all about forward looking stuff. It's, it's not a therapy. It doesn't look backwards at the causes of things. It's entirely forward looking. And so one of the first things we need to talk about is, you know, where is it you want to be in three months, in a year, in three years. And then having that as your objective, as your goal, then the coaching conversation turns into, okay, so now what do we need to do to get you to that point?
And so then it turns into understanding what your options are, understanding more about yourself and your values, understanding what things you hold dear to you, beliefs that might be helping you or might be holding you back.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: That's a big question, Nick. So if we set those goals and we no need to make a change, why is that so few people reach those goals? What are the hurdles along the way that are going to take you away from those goals? And what can you do to avoid distractions along the way?
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Well, it requires effort, for one thing.
I think we can be very comfortable. I think I've used the word comfortable before in this conversation. Comfortable feeling safe. We might feel as though we don't have time to do that research I talked about, we don't have time to assess what our goals are. Well, if it's really important to us, we have to make the time for it. We've all got 24 hours in the day, seven days a week, and we probably need to take a look at how we're spending our time. If we can't afford even to spend an hour looking at something, then it clearly isn't very important to us. And change really is going to. Is going to require us to put in effort and focus. And that's where, again, not trying to sell coaching. That's where coaching does help, though, because it requires that people set aside a bit of time.
They focus on assessing their options. They start to take small steps towards the goal that they've now agreed for themselves.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I can definitely testify to that, Nick. I think it keeps you on point, stops distractions, keeps you aligned to where you're trying to get to, which are all difficult things. I think you need to be extremely disciplined to do those things on your own. I know people can do it, but I think it's a massive challenge to stay aligned if you don't have some outside influence keeping you on track. It's interesting, Nick. I think one of the things I've always said is sometimes the riskiest thing is to do nothing. And I think it goes back to what we were discussing earlier, that change is uncomfortable and often people get into a comfort zone, but it's actually probably a pretty dangerous place to be. And especially I would say, if it comes to work and careers at the moment, it's an uncertain economy.
Organizations can make sweeping changes that could massively affect your position without you doing anything wrong or, you know, doing your job very, very well. Those decisions will make. It could be taken away from you. And I agree that people probably, although it's uncomfortable, need to be on their toes, just generally speaking, when it comes to their career. A lot, a lot more maybe than they would have in the past. But I think as we discussed, people are probably.
It's uncomfortable to be in that position. So they probably shy away from it and they don't embrace those changes until they're forced upon them.
So do you think, Nick, that being open to change, having goals, planning and working towards something, is that something? Even if we're in a great place in our career, we're happy, we're content.
Do we still need to. Should we still have those goals? Should we still be working towards things? Is that essential to have at all times?
[00:13:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it is. I think it's good for us to have, you know, projects that we're working on. I'm not just talking about in the workplace, but it can be work related, but not in the workplace.
I'm just thinking about, you know, people that volunteer, people that give back. It kind of exposes them to something which is not a usual place, exposes them to the needs of others and how they can help them. I guess where I'm going with that is that you might have somebody who is a, is a finance manager or is an accountant who is engaged and is paid a salary and everything is good, but then starts to volunteer and maybe they can use their finance background to be able to help or maybe they, they start to take an interest in something where that, that finance qualification, that finance experience can, can really sort of start to take them down a new route. Now they're not giving up what they already do, but they're starting to expand their horizons a little bit, practice what they know in a different place and that brings experience with it. So I would say always be open to taking on a new project, whether it's in the workplace or outside of the workplace, because you'll learn something from it. And I think lifelong learning is something that we do need to embrace, not just getting another degree, not just getting another certification. Lifelong learning in a very practical sense, how we can apply the skills and experience we've got in a new way. We learn from that.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Definitely. Yeah. Just go back to your point again, Nick, about coaching.
Like how aside from coaching, how can someone build a support system around them?
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Oh, friends, friends, family, people that we trust in the workplace, there's always got to be a fair degree of trust.
It might be that there's somebody in the workplace who you don't see eye to eye with, but you trust them. Now there's a sort of a strange conflict there, isn't there, where you see that somebody has integrity, you see that they've got experience, but they're not somebody that you would happily go have a beer with.
But nevertheless, that might be a good person for you to actually say, I'd love to ask your opinion.
Yeah, that need for trust is there. And the other thing we need to steer away from people that just keep agreeing with us as well. So it might be that our family would happily say to us, oh, Nick, you're doing really well. It's all brilliant, it's totally great. And actually they just don't want to give us the bad news. They're actually just trying to encourage us to keep going.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: I think that's a great point, Nick. I do think sometimes, though, you can surround yourself by people who don't maybe want you to change or don't view things the same way. So, for example, you know, I think if I look at my father's generation, they would typically have gone into a job for life and they would still probably be of the opinion, you know, you keep your head down, you keep working hard, and you just work your way through an organization. And I definitely think that had merit and it still has merit, definitely in some instances, but probably that would be the wrong way to approach your career. However, if you were to be surrounded by people like that, you probably wouldn't be open to change and it would make change even more uncomfortable. What should you do if you realize that maybe your immediate influences and support system aren't the right people to be, you know, supporting. Supporting the change you're looking to go through?
[00:16:52] Speaker B: That's a really good point, Andrew. I think. I think find people again, it comes down to trust.
Our relatives and our close friends are maybe not always the best qualified to give us advice to counselors. And I don't mean in a counseling kind of sense, but you know, to share with us their insights, you know, the how they discern a situation.
But then on the other hand, friends and family can sometimes be incredibly insightful and actually tell us things like it really is sort of thing. So having having a solid framework of people around us is really, really important. The other thing about change is it doesn't need to be seismic. When we talk about change, we're not talking about, you know, going on stage. When we've been an accountant for the last 20 years, Al that could be the sort of change we want to make. But it could be that instead of just being an accountant, that actually, you know, once a week we go and participate in some kind of amateur dramatic society.
It's kind of a cookie example I'm giving there. What I mean is that the change that we put in place may actually just be one small step at a time.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that's something I picked up from our discussions, Nick, is you've always preached, knows nothing's black and white. You can dip your toe in the water, explore new opportunities, like you say, do research. It's not all, you're not going to jump off a cliff. You don't need to necessarily make that change. Maybe you do sometimes, but most of the changes can happen incrementally and in a more comfortable and pragmatic Way, Definitely. Yeah.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Sorry. Just before you leave that point, the other thing about that, you know, I'm realizing now I keep using the word research. It sounds kind of formal and it sounds kind of dry and academic. It doesn't need to be like that. You know, we can actually just go check something out. But in. In checking it out, we're actually able to go take a look at it, even try it. You know, like I mentioned the Amateur Dramatic Society. We can go join in for a little while, but it doesn't mean to say we have to become fully committed. We might try it, decide it's not for us, and then just pull back from that and go and start making pottery or something.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a great point.
I think doing practical research is so available these days. And it's not a case of having to read a book or set your laptop to do that research. Get out and about, speak to people, meet people, dip your toe in the water and experience it. And so you've got a full idea if that's the correct change or not. It's funny, very similar when. Especially with senior positions, when people are changing jobs, I often suggest them. Well, let me set up a few conversations for you with, you know, with other organizations who I know will be interesting in your background. And really, as a preliminary conversation, really just so that the professional can get an idea, is this something that's actually better than what they've got? And they can weigh things up a lot, a lot more. And then sometimes actually they come to realization that the position they're in or the area they're in is actually much more fulfilling than they thought it was. After looking around the market and realize they've got it good where they're at and they'll get their head down. And it just takes away that distraction and takes away that feeling of need for change. It's an interesting one, but happens actually more often than you'd think.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: I think there's an interesting point there.
We talk, don't we, about grass being greener on the other side? You know, the grass always appears to be greener because we're not close to the grass. It's on the other side.
I could imagine that somebody that's worked for a commercial organization might shy away from working, say, for a charity because they'll think other wages won't be very good, the salary won't be great, there's not much career prospect there.
And yet they do. They say that in a kind of an uninformed way it might be that the work itself actually is incredibly fulfilling to the point where they don't really see the salary as being a big issue.
I think the other thing as well is that comparison can be very dangerous or very helpful for us, but it has to be that kind of informed comparison. If we just take a look at somebody on the surface, then we're doing a very superficial comparison. And of course, everybody looks successful when you see them in social media, because it's all curated. You don't see the warts and all. You don't see the effort that goes in in the background. You just see what's on the surface. But when we go into that comparison, if we do that research that we talked about, we're actually digging a bit down, you know, further down below the. The surface, we're digging down into some of the weeds that are underneath, may not put us off.
Because when we find out what we find out there, it might be that we kind of go, as you say, actually where I am is more fulfilling than that looks to be. So.
[00:21:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we've talked about this before, Nick. It's so easy to jump on social media these days. And, you know, if you're having a tough day, a tough week or a tough year, you look at and say, these, these guys over here are a lot more successful and I need to go and take a look at that. And it's very easy in social media. But the. The reality is, as you say, they're probably fighting the same battles as you and have the same challenges and issues, and maybe looking back thinking that guy's got it easy and should be taking a look at what he's doing. But I think it is tough in social media these days. It brings a lot of opportunities, of course, but also it can be a big distraction.
Absolutely.
Nick, Just to recap, if somebody is potentially looking to make a change, significant change, or a small incremental change, as we've discussed, the first step would be research. So just talk us through a little bit more about what that research could look like and the steps following that to work towards change and how goals might interact with that.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's the kind of regular research that you can do, searches on the Internet, talking with recruiters, you know, that kind of thing. I think you mentioned getting into conversations with people is going to another level, and that could be very important, you know, in terms of wanting to understand what options are worth considering, because let's face it, we don't all have all the answers. Some of those Answers are going to come from other people. In fact, probably more than comes from us. So I think. I think I would advise anybody that's considering a career change, whether it's a change of direction, a change of employer, or a change of role, is talk to people, find out from them what's interesting, what's not. Find out from them what's good, what's bad, and build up a profile in your own mind about what change would involve and what it would achieve.
Don't rush anything either. Be prepared for this to be something that takes weeks, even months to undertake. And I think another thing about this that's important is if we wait until change is imposed upon us, it could be a redundancy, it could be a reorganization in the workplace, then we tend to feel urgent and panicked as a result of that. If we've spent several months, even longer, taking a look at the market, understanding where the market's going, what the opportunities are, how some of the options that we might have discounted actually could be more interesting, then should that change finally land, then we might feel less urgent about it because we're already much more informed. So I would say kind of keeping your eye open and navigating through the uncertainty and what you don't know.
As I get older, there's a phrase that I can't. I don't know where it came from, but it says, the more I know, the more I realize how little I know.
And it's kind of key that. That we realize that we don't know anything of any great significance at any stage in life.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Absolutely agree. Just while you were talking about that, Nick, I think we've probably all worked with people who've had a kind of X factor in their career. And the more we're talking about this, the more I realize, and probably that X factor is that they're just constantly open to changing, and they do go. So they're not.
They're very intent in the way that they look at their career, so that they're constantly. Everything they do in terms of the networks they're building, the opportunities they're taking, the direction they're traveling, it's all geared towards their goal, which is likely career progression. Of course, when you see someone moving through an organization very quickly, and it is definitely something that some professionals can do intently and very well and others uncomfortable with. And I think it's as a big X factor in career success a lot of the time. And it's maybe something that you can't teach or maybe you can teach but maybe it's something that's not discussed enough. But maybe that's one for another episode, right? Yeah, I think so.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: I think.
I think that, for me, kind of draws us into the notion of what we're passionate about.
You know, I think X Factor is a great example. They're on stage for, what is it, 90 seconds or three minutes or something. It's not long. What the audience doesn't see, what the viewers don't see, but what I think probably the judges understand is the months, the years of effort that went into preparing for a moment like that.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Definitely.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: And, yeah, that I think is just one of those things that when we're passionate about something, then actually it doesn't feel like work, it doesn't feel like change, it feels like feedback and it feels like forward motion.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: Definitely. But definitely, I think it's a conversation we could expand into another episode. Again, really appreciate your time. Great insight and advice. And if anyone's listening to this, Nick, and they want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to contact you?
[00:27:17] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, thanks very much, Andrew. Yes, my website, nickcellars.com is one option and you can fill in a form and arrange a discovery call, or if you're on LinkedIn, then if you look up Nick Sellers Coach on LinkedIn, you'll find me. And again, you can book a discovery call there both ways. You'll find out a bit more about me as well.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Fantastic. Thanks again, Nick, and hopefully you'll join me again next week.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thanks very much, Andrew.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Thanks, Nick. Speak soon, yeah?
